EU Referendum

[Romario]

should be f***ing sacked for that

 

 

EDITED because the f***ing copy/paste was a headcase

This f***ing country. As each day goes by I regret making my life here with a son who should be as proud growing up with his Irish heritage as his English heritage as it shouldn’t matter and should be something rich and enjoyed.

But when a 9 year old questions what he is because kids in class tease then it’s all f***ed up.

Who are these Brexit angry people though ?

Not the sort of people who riot that’s for sure. f*** em

Two weeks of Brexit phone in talks on R5 in the morning and not one coherent Brexit caller. 3 hours a day for 2 weeks. f*** them.

[Gilps]

Good - and while that's still up for grabs, Slagging people who think the same - as a starting point - is a pretty s*** way to behave. IMO obvs

I’ll continue to question the judgement of those who prioritise the second one over the first and to doubt their genuine commitment to the first.

 

I’ll also wonder about the enthusiasm for socialism those who refer to the aims of a prospective socialist government as “your unicorns”

Edited December 7, 2018 by Gilps

[Cobs]

This f***ing country. As each day goes by I regret making my life here with a son who should be as proud growing up with his Irish heritage as his English heritage as it shouldn’t matter and should be something rich and enjoyed.

But when a 9 year old questions what he is because kids in class tease then it’s all f***ed up.

.

Sorry to hear that, man

 

I have similar though not identical issues

I’ll continue to question the judgement of those who prioritise the second one over the first and to doubt their genuine commitment to the first.

 

Bit lost on 1st & 2nds there- so apologies if this is the wrong way round but

 

Remain is the priority because it’s right here and now. A Labour Govr may yet become that if a GE is called but that seems a bit less likely than a 2nd Ref currently

[Gilps]

Sorry to hear that, man

I have similar though not identical issues

 

Bit lost on 1st & 2nds there- so apologies if this is the wrong way round but

Remain is the priority because it’s right here and now. A Labour Govr may yet become that if a GE is called but that seems a bit less likely than a 2nd Ref currently

Referring back to my point about a Labour govt and remain - 1st is Labour govt, 2nd Remain.

[Cobs]

Referring back to my point about a Labour govt and remain - 1st is Labour govt, 2nd Remain.

OK - but back in the here and now Remain is way closer an option than a GE - going on DUP/Tory rhetoric

[StevieC]

I’ll continue to question the judgement of those who prioritise the second one over the first and to doubt their genuine commitment to the first.

 

I’ll also wonder about the enthusiasm for socialism those who refer to the aims of a prospective socialist government as “your unicorns”

You often accuse Cobs of selective answering or quoting but seem incapable of reading a simple post at face value.

 

The point of that Govt is to deliver specific objectives. They can’t be delivered under economic collapse. You persistently avoid the question as to how those objectives will be delivered. Just more bombast promising something with no plan to deliver. Unless the treasure trove of secret door knocker data has unearthed a solution.

 

I’m sceptical of those who bang on about data and demand evidence but can’t provide simple answers on the accuracy and utility of their data. But that’s just me.

Edited December 8, 2018 by StevieC

[Romario]

Sorry to hear that, man

 

I have similar though not identical issues

We can intellectualise Brexit on here being about socialism etc. but it’s not.

It’s about a Tory party that opened an ugly can of worms trying to protect themselves and their own interests rather than protecting the country and people they should be looking after rather than blaming the EU for their own failures.

Having spent 40 plus years blaming the EU for every failing, how could they back track now. What we are left with is an ugly underbelly of disinfranchised people more than happy to jump on the band wagon and blame

“ queue jumpers” for their own woes rather face they facts that they’ve been let down by their own.

[Earl Hafler]

Pleased to see social media coverage for Lord Sugar’s comments on politicians / truth.

[John am Rhein]

This f***ing country. As each day goes by I regret making my life here with a son who should be as proud growing up with his Irish heritage as his English heritage as it shouldn’t matter and should be something rich and enjoyed.

But when a 9 year old questions what he is because kids in class tease then it’s all f***ed up.

I assume you're fortunate enough to have a non-UK passport, right?

[Romario]

I assume you're fortunate enough to have a non-UK passport, right?

I do yeah as does my son. My missus doesn’t though.

We can intellectualise Brexit on here being about socialism etc. but it’s not.

It’s about a Tory party that opened an ugly can of worms trying to protect themselves and their own interests rather than protecting the country and people they should be looking after rather than blaming the EU for their own failures.

Having spent 40 plus years blaming the EU for every failing, how could they back track now. What we are left with is an ugly underbelly of disinfranchised people more than happy to jump on the band wagon and blame

“ queue jumpers” for their own woes rather face they facts that they’ve been let down by their own.

That should have read>

We can intellectualise Brexit on here being an opportunity for socialism etc. but it’s not.

[Swan Red]

Revolutionary Socialists have self-identified as other than Democratic Socialists, surely?

 

All very pre-1917 Russia this. SD or SR? Careful how you choose.

 

A former member of the revolutionary socialist league writes, yeah this is right but these are tactical rather than foundational disagreements. Socialists should be at liberty to determine the best method of achieving their goals in the context of the community/society in which they operate. Liberal democracy is a very impoverished form of democracy and socialism needs popular support without which it's not really socialist. Authoritarian socialism on my account isn't actually socialist. 

We can intellectualise Brexit on here being an opportunity for socialism etc. but it’s not.

 

What are opportunities? The goal of the socialist is to transform society and should adapt to whatever social structure they work / live / theorise in Given that those living in the UK are likely to be living in post Brexit Britain they either have to identify opportunities to transform society or create them.

[Swan Red]

The point of that Govt is to deliver specific objectives. They can’t be delivered under economic collapse. You persistently avoid the question as to how those objectives will be delivered. Just more bombast promising something with no plan to deliver. Unless the treasure trove of secret door knocker data has unearthed a solution.

 

They've produced plans and you could read them but because I'm feeling kinda lazy I'll just theorise a little. The nature of the economic collapse is dependent on the nature of the Brexit? You are presuming the worst case Brexit scenario in order to compare against the damage done by the Tory government. People are actually dying now because of reforms such as UC lack of investment in the NHS. Labour doesn't need to mitigate much of the worst case in order for a redistributive program to address this. You leave those people under a Tory government.

[John am Rhein]

Unless the treasure trove of secret door knocker data has unearthed a solution.

 

[John am Rhein]

Don’t shoot the messenger....

 

Ok, shoot the messenger, follow in with flame throwers and depleted uranium cluster bombs, but then read his article

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/07/crunch-time-labour-posturing-brexit-jeremy-corbyn

[Cobs]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/07/crunch-time-labour-posturing-brexit-jeremy-corbyn

Yep

[Flasher]

We can intellectualise Brexit on here being an opportunity for socialism etc. but it’s not.

Bang on Romario. A lot of revisionism going on right now. Racists won the vote and are now hiding behind ambitions of a new style government. It's bulls***. We've had a GE election since and Tories still won.

[muleskinner]

Bang on Romario. A lot of revisionism going on right now. Racists won the vote and are now hiding behind ambitions of a new style government. It's bulls***. We've had a GE election since and Tories still won.

Technically they didn't, they are a minority propped up by 10 headbanging lunatics.

[Cobs]

https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1071078003780870146?s=21

[Swan Red]

Bang on Romario. A lot of revisionism going on right now. Racists won the vote and are now hiding behind ambitions of a new style government. It's bulls***. We've had a GE election since and Tories still won.

 

who's revising? who's hiding?

[StevieC]

They've produced plans and you could read them but because I'm feeling kinda lazy I'll just theorise a little. The nature of the economic collapse is dependent on the nature of the Brexit? You are presuming the worst case Brexit scenario in order to compare against the damage done by the Tory government. People are actually dying now because of reforms such as UC lack of investment in the NHS. Labour doesn't need to mitigate much of the worst case in order for a redistributive program to address this. You leave those people under a Tory government.

None of those plans factors in even a light case scenario. The manifesto made sense but to be remotely impactful it needs to be actionable. Reversing NHS privatisation isn’t trivial, nor would investing in the direct infrastructure needed to rebuild certain capabilities. Much was made of funding that through closing personal and Corp tax loopholes but even a small dip in the economy (let alone what those actors do after any exit) renders those calculations moot.

 

Jimbo’s question was binary - no one wants more Tory policy. Much of what they’ve done is difficult to reverse (taking the NHS again as an example). But I’ll stand by the point that a Brexit of any form is damaging in the short and long term to the country. And hardly conducive to a reforming Labour Govt being a success. Labour at any cost doesn’t seem a sound strategy.

[Gilps]

The last manifesto was costed based upon economic predictions available at that time. Any new election would have a new manifesto based upon predictions that reflect the reality at that time. Should the economy underperform those predictions for whatever reason, then the elected government would have to adjust plans accordingly - just like every government in history has.

 

In terms of barriers to delivering manifesto commitments I’d worry about, the economics is a secondary concern to the actual make up of Parliament. If Labour doesn’t gain an overall majority then there will be plans that don’t get through either a coalition agreement or, more likely, a confidence and supply arrangement. Lib Dem’s, SNP, whoever else - they’re a bigger threat to the more ambitious Labour plans unexpected falls in tax revenues.

[Hassony]

Pamela Anderson (yes, that same one of Baywatch) is talking a lot of sense about Brexit and Corbyn

 

https://twitter.com/pamfoundation/status/1071272776047185921?s=19

[jimbolala]

Stevie cheers for the honest answer. Its easier for me, i want both, to leave and at least a Corbyn victory. Ive still reservations with Labour, the fact that they wont stand in elections here being a huge elephant in the room.

[John am Rhein]

you have SDLP who’s in alliance with Labour, isn’t it?

 

Or is that information obsolete?

[Ombudsam]

That's certainly 'a' point

 

not really 'the' point here though

 

 

This bloke has magicked £8m from somewhere to give to the Leave campaign to make Brexit happen, there are suspicions it's come from Russia/Putin and hardly anyone in Government/Opposition seems to be batting eyelid.

No Cobs. It is THE point. It’s genuinely far more important.